Curse

Kunder · Apr 17, 2012, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Rangers have the distinction of running /w invincible mode while still putting out a lot more damage (especially AoE) than paragons. In that respect they are worth bringing. Sure they aren't the best, but the best group in the game is something like 8 Me/A AP characters (maybe a Mo/A AP, but I doubt you need healing). That doesn't me all other professions are useless. Rangers are still way overpowered in comparison to the game areas.

Wielder Of Magic · Apr 17, 2012, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Dagger rangers are actually really, really good. The only thing you really lose as a ranger by doing it is /w for SY. I much prefer a Brutal Lunge dagger/pet build to pure dagger attacks though.

No. Just No. Horrible skill choices here.

Needs EBSoH (+15 Damage). Needs Conjure (+15 Damage). Read the Wind is much worse than either glass arrows (10 more damage) or Ignite Arrows (15-20 more damage and AoE). So thats 50 damage per shot less you are doing than a real turret ranger.

Then you need to take Triple Shot because it's supposed to be the rape button for turret builds.

Interesting suggestion you make there Kunder.
If you don't mind me asking, how does that build with the conjure hold up in general pve?
Is the armor ignoring damage that high that it makes the physical damage reduction ( base damage that is) by using an elemental mod absolete?

Is it worth losing the synergy with mark of pain on a ball + triple & dual shot?
And how does your e-managment fare?
Looks like it might get a bit tight.

Also, is it really safe to go with superior runes on the ranger ( I assume if so that only applies when using a bow, and not when you run daggers or hammer like I do from time to time)?

ogre_jd · Apr 17, 2012, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

Interesting suggestion you make there Kunder.
If you don't mind me asking, how does that build with the conjure hold up in general pve?
Is the armor ignoring damage that high that it makes the physical damage reduction ( base damage that is) by using an elemental mod absolete?

It's okay, at best. Maybe I didn't have the right bar to support it when I did it (went Barrage and had horrible energy problems), though... And the damage is armor-ignoring, despite explicitly being lightning (elemental) damage? Certainly didn't seem so when I ran it.

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Also, is it really safe to go with superior runes on the ranger ( I assume if so that only applies when using a bow, and not when you run daggers or hammer like I do from time to time)?

A single Superior would be fine. Two and you're going to have to start devoting some of your bar to defense or mobility (though when you're moving, you're not shooting, which is bad for a DPS build) and start paying a lot of attention to survival, even if you go full Survivor, a Superior Vigor, and two Vitae...

Kunder · Apr 17, 2012, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

Interesting suggestion you make there Kunder.
If you don't mind me asking, how does that build with the conjure hold up in general pve?
Is the armor ignoring damage that high that it makes the physical damage reduction ( base damage that is) by using an elemental mod absolete?

Is it worth losing the synergy with mark of pain on a ball + triple & dual shot?
And how does your e-managment fare?
Looks like it might get a bit tight.

The only base damage reduction from using an elemental mod is not getting the +5 vampiric damage from a vampiric mod. Which is a shame, to be sure (if only Ignite Arrows changed your damage type like Kindle Arrows!), but Conjure is more powerful. If you rely on MoP you can lose conjure and take the vampiric bow again, but MoP on heroes is kind of unwieldy and Splinter Weapon alone is generally more than enough AoE power. Splinter Weapon (+50 AoE) + Ignite Arrows (+30 AoE) is a cool 400 AoE damage on the first 5 shots (remember you should be using Triple Shot and at least one more attack skill).

E-management can be supplemented by GoLE, which makes both EBSoH and Conjure free. Otherwise, remember you don't have to spam the IAS attack skills all of the time. Flatbow at +33% IAS just auto attacking isn't much slower than attack skill spam.

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Also, is it really safe to go with superior runes on the ranger ( I assume if so that only applies when using a bow, and not when you run daggers or hammer like I do from time to time)?

A ranger has further effective range than anything else in the game, 100 armor vs elemental (the most common long ranged high damage stuff is elemental), and low attack priority. 99% of the time that a bow wielding ranger starts getting attacked it means that most of the rest of the party is dead.

Astraeos · Apr 19, 2012, 02:36 PM // 14:36

I don't have the experience playing a ranger to add much to the conversation, but I do have a question. Why don't any of these "turret builds" use the expert focus preparation? 2 less energy and 8 more damage for every bow attacks seems like it would be incredibly helpful for a turret (which I think of as spamming bow attacks).

Amy Awien · Apr 19, 2012, 03:58 PM // 15:58

It is an option, you can give it a try. Some preps do add more damage, or have some other desirable effect. If it means you don't need any other e-management it would be good.

ogre_jd · Apr 19, 2012, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Mostly differing tastes in Elites, really. Plus, since you can only have one Preparation active at a time, some might prefer to use other ones (Ignite Arrows for more and AoE damage, or Read the Wind for fewer strays and dodges with the same damage bonus as Expert Focus, for example).

Kunder · Apr 19, 2012, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astraeos

I don't have the experience playing a ranger to add much to the conversation, but I do have a question. Why don't any of these "turret builds" use the expert focus preparation? 2 less energy and 8 more damage for every bow attacks seems like it would be incredibly helpful for a turret (which I think of as spamming bow attacks).

8 more damage is less than other preparations, which can add up to 20 (Kindle Arrows) to 30 (EBSoH + Ignite arrows) damage per shot. So only 8 damage is actually a really big downside since you can't run the more powerful stuff.

2 less energy per shot is worthless or almost worthless because it applies before expertise. If you have 14 expertise and use a 10 energy skill, it would normally cost (10 * .44) = 4.4 energy, which rounds to 4. If you use it with Expert Focus it costs you ((10 - 2)) * .44) = 3.52 energy, which rounds up to 4. You save no energy at all. And an additional problem is that Expert Focus is in expertise, which is what saves you energy already. If you invest in a lot of Expertise to power up Expert Focus you... probably don't need it because Expertise is strong enough on its own.

So basically Expert focus is merely 1 energy per shot maximum benefit (sometimes 0 with certain attribute values) with the problem of having vastly lower damage. Having 20 less damage per shot means it doesn't matter how often you can skill spam, you probably do less damage than simply taking a stronger preparation and auto attacking.

Flash Dilithium · Apr 20, 2012, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Yes. The +2 attribute points in marksmanship is what's responsible for my build being 30-50 DPS above yours compared across tests with similar duration.

I complained about the consumable. BTW, you do know that superior runes are an item in the game right? And that only a retarded ranger isn't using at least 1 of them in PvE?

.

You didn't complain about consumables because, like i REPEATED SEVERL TIMES, I didn't have any alcohol to fuel drunken master. My trials were done with a sober drunken master... which means it increased my fire rate by only 12%. Even if I did use alcohol, it's still not a problem because it's a skill that anybody can bring.

Here's the difference. You're comparing your build, with superior runes, to my build, with minor runes. That's an apples to oranges comparison. What I want to do is compare my build, with drunken master, to your build, without drunken master, because it's an apples to apples comparison simply due to the fact that I'm sacrificing a skill slot to take drunken master and you aren't. If drunken master would make your build more effective, then by all means bring it... but to do that you have to get rid of something. The one time I did have alcohol, I did less than 10 DPS less than your updated, fewer superior runes, build. If you reduce your superior runes down to none, and actually compare apples to apples, my build will probably be superior in damage.

The sad thing is, we could easily know for sure and this discussion would be finished if you actually asserted something that was testable and verifiable. As it is, you are making claims that nobody can verify which makes you completely and utterly worthless.

Lastly, rangers shouldn't have superior runes.

Gabs88 · Apr 20, 2012, 04:23 PM // 16:23

If you want an IAS so much, use Dwarven Stability + Lightning Reflexes, 22 seconds of 33% IAS combined with block.. You don't waste a PVE skill for 12% IAS, obviously it's going to give positive results on a straight out damage test. But in practice there are so many other better options among the PVE skills.

As lastly, in PVE all classes should use superior runes for their damage mastery if they can.

Flash Dilithium · Apr 20, 2012, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

If you want an IAS so much, use Dwarven Stability + Lightning Reflexes, 22 seconds of 33% IAS combined with block.. You don't waste a PVE skill for 12% IAS, obviously it's going to give positive results on a straight out damage test. But in practice there are so many other better options among the PVE skills.

As lastly, in PVE all classes should use superior runes for their damage mastery if they can.

I PvP with my PvE characters and I don't want to constantly replace runes. PvE is easy enough without the sups so this whole "should or shouldn't" debate, with regard to PvE, is a bit worthless to me. The important thing is to remain consistent. Let the differences between the two builds be the skills that are used, not the runes. I think, with the runes being the same, my build is on par with his or better. If it isn't, then I'll concede that his build is better and this thread has served a purpose; to show that rangers are still viable in PvE and produce DPS numbers that are on par with other classes. The problem is with Kunder failing to giving us a testable and verifiable argument.

In short, there is value in the discussion of these ideas regardless of whether or not the OP happens to be true. However, unless we can peer review and verify our claims, the discussion is meaningless.

Amy Awien · Apr 20, 2012, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

...

2 less energy per shot is worthless or almost worthless because it applies before expertise. ...

Depending on attribute values and skills used it can cut energy usage a third, or by 1/2, which can hardly be called 'worthless'. It's also a non-elite e-management skill (in case you want to use your elite for some other purpose) which happens to fall in an attribute line you already use anyway.

Kindle still doesn't ignore armor, btw, nor does Ignite and they do require significant investment in WIlderness Survival, which basically rules out using conjures. Traditionally neither of these preparations have been part of turret builds, most likely for those reasons. Expert's Focus + Conjure adds more +damage then Kindle and Ignite.

Kunder · Apr 20, 2012, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash Dilithium

You didn't complain about consumables because, like i REPEATED SEVERL TIMES, I didn't have any alcohol to fuel drunken master. My trials were done with a sober drunken master... which means it increased my fire rate by only 12%. Even if I did use alcohol, it's still not a problem because it's a skill that anybody can bring.

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I found a flask of firewater and this is what happened.

No, you never use consumables to inflate numbers. I know you know you used consumables, why deny it?

BTW, consumables can add +3 to all attributes. Just pretend I was using consumables to get the +2 wilderness and +2 expertise, if it makes you happy.

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The one time I did have alcohol, I did less than 10 DPS less than your updated, fewer superior runes, build. If you reduce your superior runes down to none, and actually compare apples to apples, my build will probably be superior in damage.

The one time you did have alcohol you did 10 less DPS over 14 seconds than I did over 1 minute. When I did a 14 second DPS run I hit 127 DPS, which is totally without any extra superiors or consumables or even minors. Let me quote you: "Inflating DPS numbers by reducing trial time is FUN!!! ", because that's what you are doing here (and, hilariously enough, you still can't win with your inflated DPS number).

Let me point out that between your build w/ consumables and your build w/o consumables was a 13% difference in DPS. The difference in my DPS between using sups and not using sups was, wait for it, 9%. So let me again say that they are roughly equivalent in effect upon our builds, in fact you are actually inflating your numbers more.

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Lastly, rangers shouldn't have superior runes.

Morons shouldn't post on internet forums. Care to back up that statement?

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Depending on attribute values and skills used it can cut energy usage a third, or by 1/2, which can hardly be called 'worthless'. It's also a non-elite e-management skill (in case you want to use your elite for some other purpose) which happens to fall in an attribute line you already use anyway.

Again, keep in mind that you need to use an attack skill that does +20 damage for EVERY ATTACK just to break even in damage vs. someone who autoattacks with a higher damage preparation. Nevermind using attack skills with other preparations, which you would of course be doing.

To cut energy by half you have to use 5e skills at a specific attribute level. Question: Does saving 1 energy per skill actually let you spam them that much more? I'm pretty sure any build can spam 5e skills all day long. Not to mention that the 13 Expertise required to do that means you probably won't be running a good Conjure, so you miss out more damage there. 10e skills you can spam a bit more, but certainly not enough to make up for the difference. DPS is all about the +damage per autoattack.

Furthermore, when I say "worthless" I mean strictly in comparison to other options. Orison of Healing isn't a worthless skill on its own, it just becomes one as soon as you get better skills. So does Expert Focus. Until it gets buffed to let us spam skills while still only taking 8-9 Expertise it just isn't pulling its weight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Kindle still doesn't ignore armor, btw, nor does Ignite and they do require significant investment in WIlderness Survival, which basically rules out using conjures. Traditionally neither of these preparations have been part of turret builds, most likely for those reasons. Expert's Focus + Conjure adds more +damage then Kindle and Ignite.

What's wrong with a quad attribute distribution? Run the numbers, you lose 1 or 2 damage on your Ignite to get Conjure. I think I showed that my build gave far superior damage with such a setup.

The EBSoH part of ignite arrows is armor ignoring. That means even against warrior enemies EBSoH + Ignite does +20-25 damage. And as a turret ranger you probably want to fire at the much more dangerous stuff in caster armor than a silly warrior that will never pose a threat to a competent group anyway.

Kindle's main claim to fame is being able to use zealous/vampiric + conjure, otherwise just go with glass arrows. Let me point out that a zealous bow will generally give more energy back than Expert's Focus if you need it, and vampiric is of course +5 armor ignoring damage per hit.

Amy Awien · Apr 20, 2012, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

5e attack skills are pretty poor. Sure, I guess you can spam point blank shot to look good in a DPS test. Might as well take a sword though.

The cost reduction applies to all bow-attacks, including the ones costing 10E.

The tables that spell out for you what your bow attacks cost at all possible levels of expertise when under the effect of Expert's Focus you night hae noticed that Expert's Focus gives you the same reduction in cost of 10E skills (those are the ones turrets use mostly) down to 4 E at 11 Expertise rather then the 14 Expertise that is common for these builds. That is enough difference to add an attribute.

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Again, keep in mind that you need to use an attack skill that does +20 damage for EVERY ATTACK just to break even in damage vs. someone who autoattacks with a higher damage preparation.

Keep in mind that Ignite Arrows and Kindle Arrows at the damage levels you suggest require (a significant) investment in Wilderness Survival, while Expert's Focus rides on your primary attribute, that you likely invest in anyway, thus keeping attribute points free for use elsewhere. Secondly, the attack skills commonly used in turrets don't just add damage, they increase your attack speed, delivering more arrows in a certain time span, including the extra packets of damage you add to your arrows.

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Nevermind using attack skills with other preparations, which the build of course will be doing.

What build? Someone asked about using Expert's Focus, which was worthless in your opinion, an opinion which is, and was shown, lacking.

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What's wrong with a quad attribute distribution?

It's not automatically wrong. A Turret build typically uses attack skills with fixed activation times that are used very frequently alongside dual and triple sho. These skills typically cost 10E, require a fairly large investment in Expertise to reduce the energy cost and in Marksmanship, to drive their primary e-management skill, Perpared Shot. Trying to fill two more attribute lines alongside those might be pushing it a bit.

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Run the numbers, you lose 1 or 2 damage on your Ignite to get Conjure.

Energy can be an issue, having to skip using attack-skills because you lack the energy will reduce DPS, and most likely at a time when it's most inconvenient. Only actual use will tell you how much of an issue this can be. Another issue you won't find in number crunching is the negative effect of complex and/or time-consuming preparation chains.

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I think I showed that my build gave far superior damage with such a setup.

What setup?
This is not about your build. It's about Expert's Focus.

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Also, the EBSoH part of ignite arrows is armor ignoring. That means even against warrior enemies EBSoH + Ignite does at least +20 damage.

EBSoH is in a leaguea of it's own, used properly it will add more to the damage-output of your team then the other skills on your bar. If you have the energy to use it.

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Ignite's main claim to fame is being able to use zealous/vampiric + conjure, otherwise no reason to use it.

Ignite does not change your bowstring's damage type, it will not let you use a vampiric or zealous bowstring with conjure flame. Kindle does. You could bring Conflagration though.

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Let me point out that a zealous bow will generally give more energy back than Expert's Focus if you need it,

No. Quite wrong. You forget -1 pip energy regen which, with a fast bow under IAS, costs about half what it yields, while you attack. With a longbow you barely break even - and it will add to the cost of using skills that keep you from attacking and hitting.
Expert Focus can 'yield' 2 Energy per attack, or free up attribute points.

Kunder · Apr 20, 2012, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The cost reduction applies to all bow-attacks, including the ones costing 10E.

I was referring to the "make skills cost half as much" part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The tables that spell out for you what your bow attacks cost at all possible levels of expertise when under the effect of Expert's Focus you night hae noticed that Expert's Focus gives you the same reduction in cost of 10E skills (those are the ones turrets use mostly) down to 4 E at 11 Expertise rather then the 14 Expertise that is common for these builds. That is enough difference to add an attribute.

It's not enough different to lose a ton of damage per attack. What does putting those 3 attribute points into something else give you? +4 damage on attack skills?

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Keep in mind that Ignite Arrows and Kindle Arrows at the damage levels you suggest require (a significant) investment in Wilderness Survival, while Expert's Focus rides on your primary attribute, that you likely invest in anyway, thus keeping attribute points free for use elsewhere. Secondly, the attack skills commonly used in turrets don't just add damage, they increase your attack speed, delivering more arrows in a certain time span, including the extra packets of damage you add to your arrows.

11/9/8/8 instead of 12/12 base stat distribution. Are you really losing that much at all? There is no such usage in "keeping attributes free to use elsewhere" unless you find an "elsewhere" to spend them. Otherwise +1 or 2 damage on an attack skill is marginal.

Attack skills hardly raise your attack speed compared to a 33% IASed flatbow. Penetrating Attack + Sundering attack + 33% IAS only reaches an effective attack rate of ~1.14s, while 33% IAS alone reaches ~1.35s attack rate. And this assumes ideal attack rate, in actuality the attack skills are a bit slower due to the interrupting your normal attack.

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What build? Someone asked about using Expert's Focus, which was worthless in your opinion, an opinion which is, and was shown, lacking.

My turret build and anyone else with a good (or even marginally effective) turret build. The difference in spammability in attack skills simply isn't outweighed.

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It's not automatically wrong. A Turret build typically uses attack skills with fixed activation times that are used very frequently alongside dual and triple sho. These skills typically cost 10E, require a fairly large investment in Expertise to reduce the energy cost and in Marksmanship, to drive their primary e-management skill, Perpared Shot. Trying to fill two more attribute lines alongside those might be pushing it a bit.

Is your argument against it costing too much or against it requiring an attribute split? The former doesn't matter much since they are cast out of battle, the latter don't matter much because losing 1 or 2 points in an attribute is no big deal.

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Energy can be an issue, having to skip using attack-skills because you lack the energy will reduce DPS, and most likely at a time when it's most inconvenient. Only actual use will tell you how much of an issue this can be. Another issue you won't find in number crunching is the negative effect of complex and/or time-consuming preparation chains.

Running a bad preparation that gives less damage will _always_ reduce DPS, and it will reduce it a lot more than skipping a skill now and then.

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This is not about your build. It's about Expert's Focus.

Expert Focus is only a worthwhile skill if it can be used in a build that performs well comparatively. If no one can present a build where it is the best preparation then it has no use.

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EBSoH is in a leaguea of it's own, used properly it will add more to the damage-output of your team then the other skills on your bar. If you have the energy to use it.

The point is that EBSoH + Ignite work together. Ignite gets a free +15 AoE damage from it because it is a separate packet, which means EBSoH is effectively 2x powerful (more if you count the AoE part). You always have energy to use it if you carry GoLE.

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Ignite does not change your bowstring's damage type, it will not let you use a vampiric or zealous bowstring with conjure flame. Kindle does. You could bring Conflagration though.

Yeah, I meant Kindle here. Stop quoting me before I fix my posts

Don't even mention Conflagration man. That's crazy talk.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No. Quite wrong. You forget -1 pip energy regen which, with a fast bow under IAS, costs about half what it yields, while you attack. With a longbow you barely break even - and it will add to the cost of using skills that keep you from attacking and hitting.
Expert Focus can 'yield' 2 Energy per attack, or free up attribute points.

OK, I calculated it all out. Turns out they are about the same.

Expert focus only yields 2 energy per attack skill at a very specific attribute distribution with a very specific energy level of skills. Let me point out that even with penetrating/sundering at least half of your attacks are non-skill, so you get between .5 and 1 energy per attack on average, and almost always .5 energy per attack. So I'm considering the .5e per attack because saving 1 attribute point isn't a worthwhile advantage.

Zealous adds 1 energy per attack and costs 1 energy per 3s.

Your normal attack rate under IAS is ~1.3s, with skills it hits ~1.1s. At this rate both Zealous and Expert Focus add ~.43e/s. Expert Focus is very slightly ahead with Sundering/Penetrating alone, but Zealous gets a fair lead when you use Triple Shot.

Astraeos · Apr 20, 2012, 09:49 PM // 21:49

I can't test this because I don't have all of the skills required yet, but I thought I'd throw together what I /think/ is a pretty good expert focus based build. With it, I'm trying to leverage expert focus as the build's only energy management, with the added bonus that it ALSO adds some damage. The bow attacks in this build are all 10e, which become 6e due to expertise and 4e due to expert focus. In other words, even though expert focus is applied BEFORE expertise, these skills still get a full 2e reduction.

Here's the build: Burning Turret

Marksmanship: 10 + 1 + 3
Expertise: 8 + 3
Wilderness Survival: 6
Fire Magic: 11

Burning Arrow
Triple Shot
Dual Shot
Expert Focus
Conflagration
I am the Strongest
EBSoH
Conjure Flame

OgYUcxsiN1S6WwgMGhhSHzk5i2CA

I'm sure that this can be improved upon by those who have far more experience with GW than I do, and with testing (which I unfortunately can't do until I cap some of these skills). But I wanted to put an experts focus build out there. Attribute points can be shifted -- I'm not sure what would be optimal here. A Wilderness Survival of 4 is required to maintain conflagration, and each point in fire magic adds another point to conjure flame. Expertise is set to get the maximum gain from expert focus (2e benefit from bow attacks and +8 damage). An alternative attribute allocation that accounts for the vastly diminishing returns of weapon attributes after 12 would be:

Marksmanship: 8 + 1 + 3
Expertise: 8 + 3
Wilderness Survival: 7
Fire Magic: 12

This squeezes an additional point out of conjure flame and adds to the duration of Wilderness Survival which will also lifts DPS slightly (because the ranger can focus on dealing damage for longer interval before recasting). I'm not sure if that will offset the decrease in marksmanship, but the difference is not likely to be great one way or the other.

EDIT TO ADD: In terms of bow, I think a 5/-1 Vampiric bow would be best with this build.

EDIT AGAIN TO ADD: A Fiery bowstring could be used instead of a vampiric in order to drop conflagration for another skill (maybe another bow attack). This would also allow you to focus only on three attributes (increasing Fire Magic to 12, and Marksmanship to 10+1+3, with an additional bow attack, minus the five damage per arrow from vampiric).

Thoughts?

Kunder · Apr 20, 2012, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Using 2 sup runes. Someone in this thread will have a heart attack...

I calculate that build (minus 2nd sup) reaching approximately 70 DPS over an extended period. Which isn't bad. Afterall it's almost my build, just with a worse preparation

and a different elite. I'll test it in a bit.

EDIT:

Using an elemental bow and forgoing conflagration, I get ~70 DPS sustained. Unfortunately another attack skill makes you lose energy much faster than you can gain it, so I wouldn't recommend that. I think that Expert's Dexterity as your elite would up your DPS a tad bit higher thanks to the IAS and the ability to spam another attack skill.

Astraeos · Apr 20, 2012, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Using an elemental bow and forgoing conflagration, I get ~70 DPS sustained. Unfortunately another attack skill makes you lose energy much faster than you can gain it, so I wouldn't recommend that. I think that Expert's Dexterity as your elite would up your DPS a tad bit higher thanks to the IAS and the ability to spam another attack skill.

Thanks for taking the time to test it Kunder! My guess is that a vampiric bowstring (using conflagration instead of an elemental string) will add somewhat to the DPS. Maybe about 5pts given the triple and dual shot? I'll give the bar a shot with Expert Dexterity, an extra bow skill and no conflagration as well (once I can track down all of the skills and get the PvE ranks to make them worthwhile). Thanks again for testing it out.

EDIT TO ADD the following:

Here's the expert's dexterity build that I will try to trial run: Expert Turret

Marksmanship: 10 + 1 + 1
Expertise: 8 + 3
Fire Magic: 12

Expert's Dexterity
Triple Shot
Dual Shot
Forked Arrow
Expert Focus
I am the Strongest
Conjure Flame (Ice, Lightning)
EBSoH

This bar would require an elemental bowstring (rather than the vampiric for the burning turret above). I'll be curious to see if (an by how much) an effective marksmanship of 14, the additional multi-arrow attack skill, and the 33% IAS offset the loss of the vampiric bowstring and the burning condition.

Kunder · Apr 20, 2012, 11:08 PM // 23:08

FWIW, since the cat is pretty much out of the bag at this point, my build was:

Triple Shot
Double Shot
Expert's Dexterity
Ignite Arrows
IATS
GoLE
Conjure Lightning
EBSoH

Which gives the ~90 DPS sustained (this number includes taking the 3s breaks to recast buffs)

Atts are
Air: 9
Expertise: 10 + 4
Wilderness: 8 + 1
Marksmanship: 9 + 1

As you can see, simply giving expertise a few more points makes up for the Ignite Arrows instead of Expert Focus, and losing 2-3 points of damage per attack through slightly lower marksmanship is more than compensated by much greater (~20) AoE damage.

I would be interested in any significantly different bow build (expert focus or not) that can exceed 90 DPS against MoD. Though I should note that Ignite Arrows deals an extra ~20ish DPS AoE, so my build should ideally be rated somewhat higher for actual play.

I do expect that my build could push slightly higher DPS numbers with Drunken Master and an attack skill (probably Burning Arrow as you were using), but I don't use cons.

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Forked Arrow

Sorry to break it to you but Conjure is an enchantment. Sundering attack is pretty much your only good choice I think, unless you want to take Point Blank Shot and lose half your range. Maybe Sloth Hunters too. A damn shame we can't take both Triple Shots

Astraeos · Apr 21, 2012, 12:07 AM // 00:07

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Originally Posted by Kunder

Sorry to break it to you but Conjure is an enchantment. Sundering attack is pretty much your only good choice I think, unless you want to take Point Blank Shot and lose half your range. Maybe Sloth Hunters too. A damn shame we can't take both Triple Shots

Shoot... I obviously hadn't thought of that! Thanks... that will save me some time (and frustration!)

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

I would be interested in any significantly different bow build (expert focus or not) that can exceed 90 DPS against MoD. Though I should note that Ignite Arrows deals an extra ~20ish DPS AoE, so my build should ideally be rated somewhat higher for actual play.

Before going off and thinking about how to utilize expert focus in a build, I was thinking of my "mind's eye" impression of what a dominant archer would be. That's somebody who would put an arrow exactly where s/he wanted it. Every time. That led me to set this up to try when I have the skills.

Critical Turret

Expertise 10 + 1 + 1
Marksmanship 10 + 1 + 3
Command 11

Prepared Shot
Triple Shot
Forked Arrow
Keen Arrow
Rapid Fire (or Disrupting Accuracy or Ignite Arrows)
Go For the Eyes!
I am the Strongest
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor

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Bowstring: vampiric 5/-1

I included Rapid Fire as the preparation here because this is a DPS thread, so the 33% IAS seemed ideal, but one of the things I like about this bar is that it seems as though it could be turned into a highly effective "lock down" archer. Swap out Rapid Fire and replace it with Disrupting Accuracy (every arrow would be an interrupt). And I think it would still deal respectable DPS (though obviously not quite as good as with the IAS). You could also replace Rapid Fire with Ignite Arrows (adjusting the attributes) to add more damage per packet, but reduce the number or packets sent (due to the loss of 33% IAS).

With this build, you give up the damage from your preparation (sorry Kunder!), but once Go For the Eyes is charged, every attack with this build should be a critical hit. That should increase the average damage of every arrow by over 20 points. Keen arrow thumps for a single arrow attack (dealing critical hit damage +43, plus the damage from EBSoH, IatS and vampiric). And it would only make it into the rotation to save energy or in the case of an enchantment or hex (in which case you could use Keen Arrow instead of Forked Arrow).

EDIT TO ADD: While this bar does not do any AoE, it does have the added benefit of granting all allies in shout range a 100% chance to critical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

FWIW, since the cat is pretty much out of the bag at this point, my build was:

Triple Shot
Double Shot
Expert's Dexterity
Ignite Arrows
IATS
GoLE
Conjure Lightning
EBSoH

Which gives the ~90 DPS sustained (this number includes taking the 3s breaks to recast buffs)

Atts are
Air: 9
Expertise: 10 + 4
Wilderness: 8 + 1
Marksmanship: 9 + 1

Kunder, if I'm thinking about this right, then your ignite arrows is adding 12 to each packet of damage, while expert focus and the vampiric bowstring are adding a total of 13 to each packet in the burning turret build above). Burning turret would also do +2 damage from the conjure effect (11 in fire magic versus 9 in air magic), for a total difference of +3 in favor of Burning turret per packet. Burning turret would also do more damage with bow attacks due to a 12 in Marksmanship (10 + 1 + 1) versus a 10. Call that another 2 or 3 points per packet for a total difference of 5 to 6 points per packet. Your build also benefits from 33% IAS, but burning turret benefits from.. well... burning (7 rounds per burning arrow attack). I think your build here would win out in DPS (and it has the AoE bonus), but I'm not sure that it would be such a big difference in DPS between one and the other.